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Forum > Rifles > Rifles > remington 22 pump model 12A

remington 22 pump model 12A

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mizuno2
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 16
Posted: May 25, 2012 08:30 PM
My Pop's rifle is in great "looking condition" but it's old. The problem is when the bullet enters the breech bolt it is sloppy. I mean the bullet is not held securely, and it is generally not in alignment to enter the barrel. When it does enter the barrel it ejects fine. I have removed the breech bolt and when I place a bullet into it at the bottom it's sloppy, and the farther I move it up the firmer more secure it gets. By this I mean when the bullet is at the top of the breech bolt it appears to be normal, snug and aligned to enter the barrel. As I operate the gun it appears to me the bullet is not being pushed to the top of the breech bolt and is therefore sloppy and not aligning to the barrel, ( which may be normal at this point), I don't know. Is this a typical problem? Is it normally a worn-out breech bolt? A worn-out carrier, carrier dog? WHAT DO YOU THINK? thanks for any info
Ezequiel
Joined: August 2011
Posts: 5695
Posted: May 26, 2012 10:28 AM

As I understand your question....your saying that when the cartridge feeds up and under the extractor as it travels forward with the motion of the bolt..it rides loosely against the bolt face.if this is it...there is no specific rule here..slop is necessary to allow feeding(often a major issue with any .22 caliber repeater, regardlessof action style. generally speaking..MY RULE is that if you have the bolt assy in your hand and you are checking any phase of the feed...fire and extract cycle..I like to have the extractor to support a loaded round against the bolt face..not so that you can snap the bolt and cartridge around and have it stay..just hold it there with relative security...When assembled...the idea is for the feed system to bring up the round...slip it under the extractor and do it with enough slop so that the bullet nose slips into the chamber without causing any binding of the mechanical process...Seldom will the case rest against the bolt face in a near perfect postion...centered or otherwise...if it feeds without binding or shaving of metal from the cartridge...bullet or case..then it is acceptable....The chamber has specific dimensions with calulated clearence numbers..oversized or undersized chambers can be problematic...with any firearm. One thing that is a NO-NO with any rimfire,like a 22, is dry firing. The firing pin is positioned in such a manner as to impact the edge of the chamber at the barrel face and damage that poit. Often a dent is seen and a burr is pushed into the chamber...this will cause feed and extraction problems and also cause light hits of the Fp on the case rim.."light" being somewhat misleading as the dented case rim can be deeply marked...but...because the case rim is not resting on anything firm when the Fp hits..the cartridge may not fire..If your gun has such damage...DO NOT REMOVE THE BURR...this metal must be ironed back into place to fill the dent...there is a tool for this available from www.brownells.com..ask them about a a .22 chamber iron..fairly cheap and comes with instructions..One other malady here..the Model 12 Remington was made when the priming compound used in 22 RF ammo was highly corrosive..as little as a firing a single round and not cleaning properly can cause serious damage to the bore and chamber. This can be a dangerous condition and should be evaluated by a professional gunsmith...there are cures for it..everything from fitting a new barrel to drilling out the bore and epoxing a liner in place...you can review that process at www.brownells.com.In a nutshell..if the bore is good and the chamber not dented or scored from firing .22 shorts and it feeds...fires and extracts...it ain't broken..so don't fix it!

mizuno2
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 16
Posted: May 27, 2012 08:33 AM

Thanks for your info.

The bullet is moved centered with the extractor and is sloopy at that position. If I push the bullet up to the very top of the breech bolt, with a screw driver, it is held firmly and straight.

My next questions are as the bullet leaves the magazine, is the part that pushes it up into the breech bolt doing its job. How far up the breech should the bullet go? What is the name of the part that moves it up into the breech...carrier....carrier dog?

Thanks for the help.

Ezequiel
Joined: August 2011
Posts: 5695
Posted: May 27, 2012 10:38 AM

First, I think we are having some nomenclature porblems. A "bullet

is a component of a cartridge..in a .22 caliber long rifle rimfire it is usually lead,but some high velocity rounds have flash coated with a copper wash..making look like it is jacketed. The "WHOLE" thing is a cartridge and is made up of a cartridge case(usually brass but steel and aluminum are made) the bullet and a powder charge...under the rim...between the folds is a liquid that has hardened and is the rimfires PRIMER..the match that starts the burn. It is impossible to tell if your gun is functioning properly...on the feed cycle without having the gun in hand. However.In the Remington Model 12 and other rifles of this type...the ammo is contained within the magzine tube slung under the barrel. Once the ammo is in place a part called a "cartridge stop" prevents then all from pushing back into the reciever...this cartridge stop is tripped by bolt/slide movement and there is a "timing" issue, that if calibrated properly, allows a single round to slip back into the reciever where it is picked up by the carrier and raised into a position that allows the round to slide up and under the extractor(s), retaining it is such a position, that the bullet nose can enter the chamber..the continued forward cycling of the forend will insert the round into the chamber and continue on into the lock position leaving the firearm in the "HOT" of firing mode...The cartridge is SELDOM...if ever.....held in a perfectly level position..it is the sum total of the entire process that makes it work..However..weatr can alter the contact points for the cartridge stop activation and the carrier timing that may alter the exact desire position of the cartridge at anyplace within that cycle. The design of this firearm is such that a repair may not always be affected by replacing a single part..like a worn cartrdge stop may also mean a worn bolt or carrier at the timing contact points. BUT from what you discribe..IT AIN'T BROKE!!!!!!!!! It seems that your saying that the gun functions but it isn't what YOU consider to be picture perfect..seldom is a feed..fire and extract/eject cycle pretty...and some slide action firearms will malfunction if you operated the slide to slowly,timing falls apart, and carrier travel is compromised or if you rack to fast with to much force...again interferring with the timing process..There is built in slop in the feeding process..it is designed and intended to be that way..The main reason for that is the wide tolerences in the manufacture of .22 rimfire ammo...to the casual observer..it all looks the same...but to the serious shooter/competitor...they know it is not and to this end..the shooting world is full of gadgets used to grade .22 ammo...measuring the consistecy of case body diameter...rim thickness and OD..actual produced velocity and power. As an example...the first thing to do with a 22 to insure function is to find an ammo brand and style it likes..One Remington Model 12 may not feed and fire any of the high grade .22 ammunitions..manifesting itself with a number of malfuctions, yet shoot match scores at extreme ranges with the junk bulk 22 ammo sold at big box mall mart stores...meaning this..the world of 22 is hardly cut and dried and in the period when your Model 12 was the newest and bestest ever...you could get two and the parts wouldn't even swap as a good amount of hand fitting was done...and the same two guns within ten serial numbers of each other...one may shoot lights out and the other would have trouble hitting the ground if the law of gravity was repealed. A reminton expert...a man that was one of Remington's prime warranty shops is LeeRoy Wisner...you can make contact with him thru his son's shop at www.wisnersinc.com You can also find info on obsolete Remingtons at www.remington.com and copies of the owners paperwork from Abby at www.cornellpubs.com..BTW the 12 was made from 1909 until an updated version, the Model 121 was introduced in 1936. The 121 is basically the same gun with an improved firing pin,buttstock and forend. The same feed system was also used in the Remington Model 14..The designer of the gun was John D. Petersen.FWIW If you encountered a "Shooting Gallery" in a 1950's carnival...the firearms chained to the table were likely Remington Model 12B named the Gallery Special Grade..it was chambered to fire the .22 short only...Sorry I can't be more helpful...but what I gather from your wording is that gun functions and as long as no metal is being shaved during the cycle and it feeds cleanly, fires and them extracts and ejects..I see no safety problem based on what you have said...seems the gun is operating as designed....

mizuno2
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 16
Posted: May 27, 2012 11:16 PM

I was hoping that after I described this gun failure that someone would recognize it as normal wear and tear. That someone would say "all you need to do is replace the breech bolt" and just forget about all the other possible worn-out moving parts involved.

40 years ago I remember this rifle didn't cycle cartridges very good, maybe that's normal, I don't know.

I would think that this rifle produced in these numbers would have typical problems with typical solutions. Pops rifle is in excellent material condition with zero signs of corrosion. I ordered a new breech bolt and am hoping that it will resolve this feed jam.

Do you recommend any particular cartridges?

Thanks again I do appreciate your input!

Ezequiel
Joined: August 2011
Posts: 5695
Posted: May 28, 2012 09:27 AM

Th problem about the typical problems and typical fixes...was that was a current thing 50 or so years ago and the latter day gunsmith sees one of these guns..maybe 2-3 times in a lifetime of buisness...even back then you couldn't diagnose or repair over the phone or thru the mail...just because the tool has changed to a computer..doesn't change that fact..gun repair is a hands on thing...and...so far You haven't discribed a failure...just a condition you think of as a failure...a cartridge sitting loose against the bolt face and part way into its final position is the most common thing with any repeater..regardless of style. If it were hard in place...then failures to feed would be higher and getting worse The whole of the sequence is what makes it work..You have said that it feeds..it fires and it extracts and ejects but you don't like the fact that it is feeding into position in stages..If you have an actual failure of the process other than you don't like what it looks like...state it! Maybe I missed something in your postings...I'll go thru them again...but when I have an issue with a Remington obsolete model, I ask LeeRoy Wisner or his son Jim www.wisnersinc.com and use their e-mail link...you may also find a page on that site dedicated to the Remington Model 12..Sorry I can't say"Replace part "A" and time it to part "B" at least not with the info you have given thus far......I looked at your original posting..the bolt has an extractor, an extractor plunger and an extractor spring..this assembly will supply some tension to the cartridge and hold it in position..installed..it should flex inboard and outboard freely enough to allow the case rim to move up and under it...then supply spring tension towards the center of the bolt..One thing that was a problem back when this gun was state of the art was that the type of powder solvent/cleaning fluid used would congeal and dry into a varnish...it was also an attractor of crap that would mix with the solvent and then harden..the first stage of drying was a tacky goo that..in time..became a hard brownish varnish..it flowed into nooks and crannies with ease and stayed there...and..many shooters also thought of it as an oil/lube and left excess amounts in the gun...even in the bore and if the gun was stored...when this stuff was still liquid..with the muzzle higher than the bolt...then it flowed back and into the recievers working parts..a couple of months later it was goo in another month of collecting dust it became varnish..Sadly "cleaning" doesn't always mean a complete and detailed disassembly...usually just running a brush and a patch down the barrel and applying a damp rag wrench to the exterior..Step one..disassemble down to the smallest detail part... and clean it pristinely use a solvent like acetone to remove any discoloration to any part(not bluing or casehardening)..While you have it apart..check every part pin ...spring..screw and all larger parts..including the reciever...inside and out bearing in mind that this model is a takedown style and is subject to soiling at every opening...take note of contact areas between any combination of parts...if it shows an extreme shine or any peening of metal..it is supsect and replacement should be considered....... If your not sure what bumps what...leave the parts lude free and coat the suspect area with Dykem or use a waterproof magic marker...reassemble the gun and hand operate it a few times...disassemble and check for points where the marking fluid has been scrubbed off or scarred.....

mizuno2
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 16
Posted: May 28, 2012 04:45 PM

Zeke,

Thanks for the advice...good stuff. I am going to try the cleaning and pen marking.

I guess I wasn't very clear of the problem. Let me try again...Cartridge leaves the magazine and enters the breech bolt up to even with the extractor. At this point the cartridge is aimed to the left or right or down from a firing position point of view. It is never aim/aligned at the barrel chamber. Most-times the cartridge is only being held by the extractor and is not in the groove of the breech on the left side, opposite the extractor. That is why I suspect the breech bolt groove is worn-out.

Again thanks.

Ezequiel
Joined: August 2011
Posts: 5695
Posted: May 28, 2012 05:38 PM

The way I read you now is that there seems to be an issue with the bolt face.....To be honest with you..I have never seen a problem develope there from wear...some home gunsmithing where some one tried to minimize headspace...but never happening on its own..My first suspect would still be the extractor..you should be able to push the extractor outboard and when released...it should snap right back into position. The profile of the extractor hook should be: The underside is roundedformimg a lead in for the case...the tip of the hook should be square to the bolt face with a little taper to the underside and the tip SHOULD NOT BE SHARP..if it is ..it will grab the case and at a minimum slow the upward feeding movement of the case. usually you can see a scratch or dig mark on the cartridge case...either on the rim itself or on the case just forward of the rim..also..most barrel faces will have a slot cut(half moon negative cut) that the extractor nose slides into and the shape of the groove cams the hook OFF the case when the bolt is in lock up...check that slot for damage...many get buggered up if the extractor hook is jammed up in the bolt. as I stated before...with the bolt removed from the gun, the extractor should hold a loaded round in place...there will be some droop...if the spring tension is to great...then the cartridge will be cocked to one side..Example..if the bolt face is spotfaced to accept the case rim and that inside left radius is full of crap..then the case will usually point to the right..opposite if the right radius is gummed up...again roughly 90% of 22.rimfire problems can be traced to ammo..all are not equal...and if you can come up with a definitive way of telling which .22 ammo will function in what gun...your on your way to wealth...match shooters(as I have stated) use numerous high tech tools to grade and cull ammo...even the most expensive match grade stuff like Ely 10X So before you do anything that cannot be undone...clean it and try it with at least a dozen different ammo styles/brands....and Yes Remington Standard velocity...Remington High Velocity and Remington Viper and Remington Rifle match are all DIFFERENT AMMOS!!!!!!!! In fact even the same brand and style is different...if it is a different lot number...there are very wide tolerences used in the manufacture of .22 rimfire...from tighter than a gnats butt than sloppier than a $2 lady of the night......not an exact sciece here...strictly trial and error.....

mizuno2
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 16
Posted: May 29, 2012 08:47 PM

Zeke,

I just removed the breech bolt and put a cartridge into it and it's loose side to side. I can push the cartride sideways and remove the it from the breech at various heights prior to the extractor. At the extractor or above it it is secure unless the extractor moves and releases it. The grooves in the breech seem excessively large compared to the cartridge rim/head, not sure of the proper nomenclature. Would you consider this normal or worn-out?

I reinstalled the breech and cycled the pump with a round and it chambered a round several times ok.

Cleaning may be the resolution as you stated earlier, wouldn't that be special?

Would it be ok to disassemble the various parts and take them to a machine shop and have them ultrasonically cleaned or would that ruin the bluing?

What type lube should I use and where?

Zeke I wish you were in Norfolk, Va. I would bring this project to you and let you have at it!

Thanks for your help, I hope to get this gun working like new.

see ya,

Paul

Ezequiel
Joined: August 2011
Posts: 5695
Posted: May 30, 2012 10:10 AM

Breech..by definition The part of the firearm to the rear of the chamber that provides support for cartridge head during firing.........Breechblock: a mechanism that DOES NOT OPERATE IN LINE WITH THE AXIS OF THE BORE, and that is intended to support,properly,the head of the cartridge. BREECHBLOCK FACE: That poart of the breechblock that bears on the casehead face during feeding and firing however..generally referred to as Breech...bolt and bolt face...Take note, that with a rimfire cartridge..Headspace is set by a firm,non adjustable spacing or gap between the rear barrel face and the bolt face. Two common methods employed are to counterbore the bolt face and form an upside down "U"..Within that"U" there are provisions for the extractor...usually at the 9 o'clock position and the firing pin,usually at the 12 o'clock position.....Be advised...that...there is built in allowable "slop"(tolerences) to all of these...the only one anywhere near tight is headspace..that is held in STRICT dimensions as established by SAAMI(they set standards for headspace and operating pressures) Bear in mind..the tighter these tolerences are held..the higher the possibility of malfunction the exception(for the most part) is headspace all others are set at what works and allows the bolt to lockup properly..the parts,nor the process are never going to be like the parts are all welded together....somewhere on the web, there is an x-ray like film showing the Colt Government Model 19911A1 .45 caliber pistol during a cvomplete fedd...fire and eject cycle..frankly there isn't any part of the cycle that actually oocurs in a straight forward manner...the cartridge on feed and extract...eject is all over the place widely and no two cycles are the same..i bring this up..not because it is strange...but because it is typical...this process is not an exact science..it is established by trial and error and will differ by ..not only brand and style...but even from gun to gun of the same brand and model..While the guns may look the same...they are not all are a little different from each other...in fact...you will often hear the term "Accuracy Job" it is said about all firearms...and..what the gunsmith does...is try to make the gun act the same from shot to shot..repeat everything as close to exactly the same as possible..I do accuracy work on the Model 1911 pistols..I have a few dozen special tools that allow each task to be performed in a minimum period of time...but even with all the tools to make the thing the same...that only takes it to about 90%...the last 10% is all handwork...UNIQUE...to that firearm...and...even then..they all shoot different..some will shoot 10 shots at 50 yds into a 1" group...while another with the exact same work performed...will only do a 3" group..point is no two are the same even with high amounts of hand work..Factories don't do this...costs would be thru the roof...they make it work with slop being their biggest tool(CNC machining has negated this a bit)Point is is Remington would say that gun is performing in an acceptible manner if it functioned as intended...maybe as little as 85% of the time...........