I'm bidding on an antique rifle that is chambered in 11x52R which is obviously obsolete. I'm having trouble finding any available ammo(backordered and about $80 for 20 rounds) or dies to load my own. My only lead on dies right now is through CH4D and they're backordered until next January. Any dies I've come across come from that manufacturer and everyone is sold out. Does anyone know anymore that has available ammo or dies?
The Book(Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions) sez... it listed as the .43 Dutch Beaumont and as the 11x52R Netherlands Beaumont and the only info on brass states "BELL" makes 11mm Beaumont and to shoot it in your gun trim it to length(2.04")..chamfer and full length size
The load data listed 400 gr lead bullet pushed by31.0 grs or IMR4198 data is from Barnes
That said When it comes to these old cartridges..I prefer a load of IMR Trail Boss..Look to the Hogdon website for data
There is(was) a published formula for determining a load for unlisted cartridges......First you determined the point where the base of the bullet would be located in the case when seated to OAL...you fill the case with Trail Boss to that point and then weighed the powder(I do this a couple of times and average it) that is your MAX load...reduce this by one third for a starting load...From that point you can work up the load as if it were any other powder..You can find this method ..on line..i suggest you verify my version before use...
The Book(Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions) sez... it listed as the .43 Dutch Beaumont and as the 11x52R Netherlands Beaumont and the only info on brass states "BELL" makes 11mm Beaumont and to shoot it in your gun trim it to length(2.04")..chamfer and full length size
The load data listed 400 gr lead bullet pushed by31.0 grs or IMR4198 data is from Barnes
That said When it comes to these old cartridges..I prefer a load of IMR Trail Boss..Look to the Hogdon website for data
There is(was) a published formula for determining a load for unlisted cartridges......First you determined the point where the base of the bullet would be located in the case when seated to OAL...you fill the case with Trail Boss to that point and then weighed the powder(I do this a couple of times and average it) that is your MAX load...reduce this by one third for a starting load...From that point you can work up the load as if it were any other powder..You can find this method ..on line..i suggest you verify my version before use...
I got the dies, case holder, and 20 cases to start with. So just need the bullets, primers, and powder. Forgive me, I'm new to this and my uncle is the big reload guy of the family. I'll be sure to show him your advice once I get the rest of the supplies and we get started.
Thanks again.
Pete
Peter1259488
Joined: June 2017
Posted: March 30, 2018 08:52 PM
Thank you very much Ezequiel,
I got the dies, case holder, and 20 cases to start with. So just need the bullets, primers, and powder. Forgive me, I'm new to this and my uncle is the big reload guy of the family. I'll be sure to show him your advice once I get the rest of the supplies and we get started.
From what you say....You need a press to mount the dies and shellholder in.....then powder and primers
www.buffaloarms.com can supply the bullets Like I said..Use Trail Boss it is a powder specifically developed for old bp guns
To make your own bullets.....You will need a furnace to melt and cast alloy..A mold for the bullet you need a lubrisizer to size and lube the bullets...plus dies and a punch for the sizer that are bullet specific...If you are not going to shoot this thing a lot..then buying bullets is the cheaper option...About the cheapest set up for this is made by Lee Precision
Ezequiel
Joined: August 2011
Posted: March 31, 2018 09:40 AM
From what you say....You need a press to mount the dies and shellholder in.....then powder and primers
www.buffaloarms.com can supply the bullets Like I said..Use Trail Boss it is a powder specifically developed for old bp guns
To make your own bullets.....You will need a furnace to melt and cast alloy..A mold for the bullet you need a lubrisizer to size and lube the bullets...plus dies and a punch for the sizer that are bullet specific...If you are not going to shoot this thing a lot..then buying bullets is the cheaper option...About the cheapest set up for this is made by Lee Precision
Yes my uncle has a couple presses. My plan is to use the powder you recommend and see if I can find bullets and primers with your recommendations. I would really like to work my way up to 50-100 rounds to be able to shoot when I want to but as this is an obsolete caliber, I'll make due with what I have for now. Thanks again.
After looking briefly I found your recommended powder and bullets. My dad did some searching online and came up with primer #209M which are readily available. Does that sound about right?
Pete
Peter1259488
Joined: June 2017
Posted: April 1, 2018 09:39 AM
Thank you again Ezequiel,
Yes my uncle has a couple presses. My plan is to use the powder you recommend and see if I can find bullets and primers with your recommendations. I would really like to work my way up to 50-100 rounds to be able to shoot when I want to but as this is an obsolete caliber, I'll make due with what I have for now. Thanks again.
After looking briefly I found your recommended powder and bullets. My dad did some searching online and came up with primer #209M which are readily available. Does that sound about right?
As far as bullets are concerned, Buffalo Arms uses a .458 395gr lead bullet but does not make any mention of the primers they use. The reading I've come across has said to use primer 209/209M which are shotshell primers. One of the two sellers I bought cases from said to use large pistol primers.
My question is in your opinion, could I just drive to Cabela's and pick up any 209 primers and any .458 bullets to use in my handloads? Or would it be better to buy bullets from Buffalo Arms, and get the primers and Trail Boss powder from Cabela's?
Thank you for your help.
Pete
Peter1259488
Joined: June 2017
Posted: April 7, 2018 10:03 AM
Ezequiel,
As far as bullets are concerned, Buffalo Arms uses a .458 395gr lead bullet but does not make any mention of the primers they use. The reading I've come across has said to use primer 209/209M which are shotshell primers. One of the two sellers I bought cases from said to use large pistol primers.
My question is in your opinion, could I just drive to Cabela's and pick up any 209 primers and any .458 bullets to use in my handloads? Or would it be better to buy bullets from Buffalo Arms, and get the primers and Trail Boss powder from Cabela's?
Unless you have come by some original brass loaded when the gun was an issue military firearm the primers will be American standard primers..They come in 2 strengths Standard and magnum and in 2 sizes for handguns and 2 for rifles(plus shotgun) they are designated as Large Pistol(LP)...Large Pistol Magnun(LPM) and Small Pistol(SP) and small Pistol Magnum(SPM)...the same goes for rifle..LR...LRM........SR...SRM..... The large are all the same diameter(OD) the small are a lesser Diameter...what varies between rifle and pistol is the height...and Standard and Magnum are different powers and the M's burn hotter and throw a longer flame.......The manual or the Official website you get your data from will tell you which primer they used to develop that data...follow that recipe EXACTLY.... none of the components listed are "suggestions" they are firm.......Some leeway is there in BRAND of primer.....Remington...Winchester...CCI..Federal etc but if you work up a load from the suggested starting load a 1/10th of a gr at a time and you are at any point above that starting load and you change ANY COMPONENT...be it brass...primer...powder..powder weight(outside of a building mode)bullet even bullet style lead or jacketed...brand of bullet..YOU START ALL OVER AGAIN.........
Old Military brass may be BERDAN Conventional USA loading dies will not de-prime this brass..Boxer(our common brass) primed brass has a single centered flashole that the decaping pin pokes thru to knock out the old primer...Berdan primers(of themselves they are constructed differently) have TWO smaller flasholes that are off center and require special tools to de prime
Primer diameters
Check YOUR BRASS for primer pocket size measure it woth a vernier caliper
Small= .175".........Large = .210"
Pocket depth as related to the primer itself..Small pistol and small rifle primers are .115" long .......large pistol are .116" long and large rifle is .133" long...when the primer is fully seated in the primer pocket Flush or just below flush...high primer protrusion is a mistake
I suspect that your brass accepts and is intended to use a large Rifle primer...its power rating is determined by the powder being used...some powders ignite poorly and need the hotter burning magnum primers...cases such as yours that take large amounts of powder will often require the hotter primer to ignite the larger quanity of powder......If you are loading TRAIL BOSS and have to use the formula to dope out a load and you don't know what primer to use heat wise.....look at cases using similar amounts of the same powder If I were loading for this cartridge..I would use the 45-70 Government round as the yardstick ..not the data for it.....just to see what primer they used to burn a like amount of the same powder
OR...OR....OR...just ask Hodgdon...they will walk you thru the load using Trail Boss...What you have to have in hand is #1 the brass and #2 the bullet weight and material........Personally...I would stray all that far from the starting load...You say you just want to make it go BANG ...safely...no need to load for Dinosaurs....
Ezequiel
Joined: August 2011
Posted: April 7, 2018 05:06 PM
Unless you have come by some original brass loaded when the gun was an issue military firearm the primers will be American standard primers..They come in 2 strengths Standard and magnum and in 2 sizes for handguns and 2 for rifles(plus shotgun) they are designated as Large Pistol(LP)...Large Pistol Magnun(LPM) and Small Pistol(SP) and small Pistol Magnum(SPM)...the same goes for rifle..LR...LRM........SR...SRM..... The large are all the same diameter(OD) the small are a lesser Diameter...what varies between rifle and pistol is the height...and Standard and Magnum are different powers and the M's burn hotter and throw a longer flame.......The manual or the Official website you get your data from will tell you which primer they used to develop that data...follow that recipe EXACTLY.... none of the components listed are "suggestions" they are firm.......Some leeway is there in BRAND of primer.....Remington...Winchester...CCI..Federal etc but if you work up a load from the suggested starting load a 1/10th of a gr at a time and you are at any point above that starting load and you change ANY COMPONENT...be it brass...primer...powder..powder weight(outside of a building mode)bullet even bullet style lead or jacketed...brand of bullet..YOU START ALL OVER AGAIN.........
Old Military brass may be BERDAN Conventional USA loading dies will not de-prime this brass..Boxer(our common brass) primed brass has a single centered flashole that the decaping pin pokes thru to knock out the old primer...Berdan primers(of themselves they are constructed differently) have TWO smaller flasholes that are off center and require special tools to de prime
Primer diameters
Check YOUR BRASS for primer pocket size measure it woth a vernier caliper
Small= .175".........Large = .210"
Pocket depth as related to the primer itself..Small pistol and small rifle primers are .115" long .......large pistol are .116" long and large rifle is .133" long...when the primer is fully seated in the primer pocket Flush or just below flush...high primer protrusion is a mistake
I suspect that your brass accepts and is intended to use a large Rifle primer...its power rating is determined by the powder being used...some powders ignite poorly and need the hotter burning magnum primers...cases such as yours that take large amounts of powder will often require the hotter primer to ignite the larger quanity of powder......If you are loading TRAIL BOSS and have to use the formula to dope out a load and you don't know what primer to use heat wise.....look at cases using similar amounts of the same powder If I were loading for this cartridge..I would use the 45-70 Government round as the yardstick ..not the data for it.....just to see what primer they used to burn a like amount of the same powder
OR...OR....OR...just ask Hodgdon...they will walk you thru the load using Trail Boss...What you have to have in hand is #1 the brass and #2 the bullet weight and material........Personally...I would stray all that far from the starting load...You say you just want to make it go BANG ...safely...no need to load for Dinosaurs....
